EIP-8363: Tapered Issuance Burn

Sure. And I also argue that “we can’t know” is not a reason to not make a policy change.

We neither know what’s happening if we apply the change nor do we know what will happen if we won’t apply the change and eth staked goes to >50%. Both inaction and action are leading us to unchartered territory. So the status quo bias here is unjustified.

So no, it’s a false conclusion that the burden of proof is disproportionately on one side. Our brains like the status quo but we must realize when that bias should be thrown out the window.

Irrelevant. Keep the discussion technical. He was addressing a point brought up in this thread suggesting that our forum should yield to a cesspool of ragebait. In forums like this, people will be wrong, and it won’t result in character assassination.

It is okay if it is not always profitable to stake. Otherwise, all ether would be staked. The tapering provides a price discovery mechanism, while keeping the stakers with the best uptime. If the remaining stakers are profitable at zero issuance (due to transaction fees and MEV), then Ethereum achieves a very high level of security without any inflation. More likely there would be some level of issuance though; I agree that people need a guaranteed minimum. This is a strength of the mechanism; the tapered design should successfully limit the proportion of ether that is staked.

It’s approaching 40%, and has been steadily increasing, with headwinds in H1 and tailwinds in H2.

The proposal is solving a real problem, and Ethereum is spending too much on its security budget, to the detriment of non-stakers. The higher the staked proportion, the more concentrated the dilution upon the remaining non-stakers.

As demonstrated by the public outcry, it will be harder to fix this problem when there are more stakers; they are highly incentivized to oppose any reduction to inflation.

There is a lot of discussion about solo staking here, but at near-100% staked, their income is entirely canceled by the inflation, and negated by income tax. Staking is only profitable in real terms if not everyone does it. Near-100% stake would push all stake into tax havens, which is bad for decentralization.

The tapered design is good, sound economics. 50% is a good cut-off. Perhaps it should be less, but I agree it would be less painful if it is higher than the current level.

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  • Going from 0% → 40% does not imply 40% → 100%
  • The marginal staker at 40% ≠ the marginal staker at 90%

The current issuance curve is literally designed around this feedback loop: more stake → lower yield → less incentive for additional stake.

Possible ≠ probable (even in systems where delegation is basically the default behaviour, we have not seen 100% participation, which if anything suggests there are other factors that play a role beyond yield alone)

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This is a repost for visibility of an article posted on X today by Joseph Chalom of Sharplink. I think it is very relevant to the discussions here.

Title: EIP-8363 Is the Wrong Proposal, at Exactly the Wrong Time

By Joseph Chalom (@joechalomjoechalom)

A proposal now before the Ethereum community would sharply reduce the reward for securing the network. Its odds for passing are long. Its implications are not. It would undermine DeFi, push capital off the chain, and cost ETH the yield productivity that differentiates it from Bitcoin. The timing is the sharpest part. It is being proposed at a moment of tremendous momentum for Ethereum, where the world’s largest institutions and innovators are overwhelmingly choosing it.

The proposal is EIP-8363, “Tapered Issuance Burn.”

Today, the network largely pays validators a variable yield of approximately 2.75% in newly created ETH as compensation for securing network transactions. If passed, the reduced issuance schedule would be phased in over about a year and a half. A growing share of that yield will be burned as more ETH is staked, until roughly half of all ETH staked, at which point yield goes down to 0%. Validators would be asked to go on securing Ethereum and earn no issuance for it, living on transaction tips alone that today account for only 15% of staking yields.

Sharplink opposes it.

The authors are serious researchers and deep believers in Ethereum. We know many of them well, we like them, and none of this is personal. But well intentioned people can be wrong, and on this they are.

Here are four reasons why.

It Would Undermine DeFi, and DeFi Is Ethereum’s Superpower

DeFi was built on Ethereum and remains overwhelmingly an Ethereum phenomenon. It is also where the stablecoins and tokenized assets now arriving will actually go to work. Damage DeFi and you damage the destination for everything institutions are bringing onchain.

Staking yield net of costs and inflation, or the real-yield as it would be in traditional finance, is the de facto base rate underneath all of it. Every rate in the system is priced off it, the way rates in traditional markets are priced off a risk free benchmark. Liquid staking tokens, roughly $35 billion in TVL, are core collateral across onchain lending. Borrow against a liquid staking token and the staking yield offsets part of your borrow cost, which is exactly what pulls capital into onchain deployment while that same capital secures the network. It is a rare arrangement where the incentive to participate and the incentive to protect point in the same direction.

Reduce the yield and that arrangement comes apart. The cost of onchain capital rises. Real yield in the classical sense (nominal minus inflation) is pushed toward zero. Once you account for validator operating costs, liquidity costs and slashing risk, it can become negative. At that point, staking stops being compensation for a service and becomes a fee you pay for the privilege of providing it.

The second order effects are worse than the first. Collateral migrates to assets that still have reasonable yields. Lending markets thin out. At near zero yield, the operators who survive are the ones with the lowest cost of capital and the largest scale, while solo stakers and mid-sized operators carrying real unsubsidized costs are pushed out first. None of this shows up on day one. It shows up as a slow drift, which is the hardest kind of damage to reverse.

Productivity Is Why Institutions Choose ETH

Institutions buy ETH because, unlike bitcoin, it is natively productive. It works for them.

That distinction is a huge advantage for institutional allocators and retail investors. That is what lets ETH into investment mandates requiring a return profile rather than just a directional view on asset appreciation. It is a critical reason why tens of billions of dollars of investor sentiment has flowed into ETH through ETPs, DATs, and private funds. The world’s largest investors and their clients believe in the long term Ethereum opportunity and express that view by buying ETH. They expect capital appreciation plus native yield.

EIP-8363 erases that distinction. We would be voluntarily undermining one of ETH’s competitive advantages at a moment when it is outperforming Bitcoin and other major crypto assets.

The Yield Does Not Leave the Ecosystem, It Funds It

Issuance is not a cost Ethereum pays out to strangers. It is a transfer inside the system, from the network to the people who secure and build it. That distinction is the whole argument, because the case for burning rests on treating the payment as leakage. It is not leakage. It is the network’s own funding mechanism, and it is one of the few in crypto that operates continuously and without a committee.

Follow where the money actually goes. Staking rewards pay the node operators who keep the network live and the infrastructure teams who keep client software maintained and diverse. They capitalize the funds and treasuries that back Ethereum builders. They underwrite the long horizon work a public network needs and that no outside party will fund on its behalf. A large share of the yield generated on Ethereum is reinvested in Ethereum’s ecosystem.

EIP-8363 does not redirect that value. It destroys it. In fact, it could lead to institutions selling ETH as they unstake it.

We can speak to making ETH productive using our own balance sheet. Our ETH does not sit idle. It leverages validators on Coinbase, Anchorage, Figment, Galaxy Digital, etc. It backs DeFi protocols, including ether fi, Linea, and EigenCloud. It will fund the next generation of Ethereum projects and spinouts. Base issuance is the fuel for that work, not rent we collect on it. Reduce it and the capital that currently cycles back into the ecosystem simply stops cycling.

The Timing Could Not Be Worse

Look at the scoreboard, Ethereum is winning and gaining momentum. Roughly $159 billion of stablecoins and more than $15 billion of tokenized real world assets already settles on Ethereum, and we believe trillions more are coming.

Over the past several weeks, Robinhood built its new chain on an Ethereum layer 2 and put 28 million funded customers and $369 billion in platform assets behind it. BlackRock tokenized shares of BSTBL, one of its existing multi-billion dollar money market funds, directly on Ethereum. BNY, the world’s largest custodian, is bringing staking onto its institutional custody platform through a partnership with Galaxy Digital. These are not crypto companies making crypto bets. They are among the largest and most innovative institutions in global finance, and they have spent years deciding whether this network is stable enough to build on. They chose Ethereum because of its track record and stability.

That decision is the product Ethereum has been selling, and it has finally been made. It is worth noting that every rollup settling here, Robinhood’s included, is paying for the security of the same base layer. They are all standing on one foundation.

Ethereum has turned a corner. This is a brand new era with unprecedented momentum.

What We Support

We want much of what the authors want: an ETH that grows scarcer over time, and a staking ratio that settles at a sensible level. Where we part company is on how to get there. Ethereum already has a mechanism for this, and it can work. The base fee burn makes ETH deflationary whenever the network reaches a threshold of usage.

EIP-8363 is addressing this problem in the wrong way. This is an economic and business challenge, not a technical one. Worse, it would suppress the incentive that brought a massive wave of institutional adoption, which will only grow alongside the rise of tokenization and agentic payments.

We have spent years making the case that Ethereum is where serious capital belongs. That case is finally being won, in public, by the largest allocators and custodians in the world.

This is not the moment to make fundamental changes to the economic underpinnings of the protocol.

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Again, a red herring. Noone is seriously arguing for stake reaching 100%. But all the described problems mostly apply at 99%, 90%, 80% or even 70% of ETH being staked

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I think Sharplink is a great force for ethereum. But one of the most biased voices when it comes to this debate.

Everyone here should disclose what % of eth they hold is staked… if >50%, you’re biased…!

Strongly agree with every point Lex is raising here.

Adding that it appears that there has been little consideration for how high risk this proposal becomes when it comes to predictability and establishing additional adoption.

I am observing proponents of this policy claim that the aim is to limit the incentive for custodians and LSTs to have such large staking positions.

Changing fundamental policy is not the way to solve this issue. Custodians and LSTs are not the problem. Genuine network demand and growth beyond staking and custodial staking resolves the issue, and solving that problem requires teams to build actual products that can grow outside of the waning crypto native cohort. Those are market issues to resolve.

This EIP as a solution makes ethereum less predictable and higher risk for established businesses to work with. If the rewards policies can change because a group of researchers decided to frame market growth and success by custodians and LSTs as problematic and needing correction, what’s next? All the security and settlement value props die when people can’t maintain confidence in stability with the underlying fundamentals.

LSTs and custodial LSTs provide non-technical users greater access, usability and increase adoption and growth potential. Say this were to play out, are those users going to dig around to see how they can learn the harder thing to learn to get the same outcome or similar they had? No, they’re going to take their assets elsewhere, where they can be confident that the methodology isn’t going to change mid-flight.

Spend all this time trying to launch clever knob turning into building genuine demand and broader growth for the network. It frames the network as being opinionated against participants that literally grew their efforts to reach what anywhere else would be seen as a measure of success. Please don’t pass this EIP. It doesn’t appear that the second or third order impacts have been thought through very well.

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The implementation of this EIP on the network would effectively invalidate their business model and cut off the funding that they and others like Bitmine are committing to the development of the protocol. That in no way is something worth considering working with in your mind?

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if < 50% also biased?

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Could the initial authors please disclose their conflicts of interests? This proposal could be a prime example in the CIA simple sabotage manual.

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First, credit to the authors for putting this forward. The intentions are clearly good and the two goals are the right ones to care about: protecting Ethereum from capture via a dominant share of the staked supply, and improving ETH’s moneyness.

My argument is that this proposal is likely to damage both of the things it is trying to protect. I’ll take the decentralization claim first, since that is the one the authors have not closed.

1. The wedge argument compares revenue, but operators optimize profit.

The defense of solo stakers here rests on the claim that a delegator must clear a fee of 20-80bps plus an issuer-risk premium, while a solo staker clears no fee and bears no counterparty risk, and therefore has the lowest reservation yield of any cohort.

That comparison is between revenue wedges, and it leaves out cost structures entirely. A solo staker carries hardware, electricity, downtime risk and, in most jurisdictions, tax assessed on gross credited rewards, and those costs are fixed rather than proportional to stake. A large operator amortizes the same costs across thousands of validators. If you compress consensus income across the board, the participant with the higher fixed cost per ETH goes uneconomic first, and that participant is neither the LST nor the exchange.

goodroot asked this question directly and I don’t think it has been answered. The response pointed at the per-duty offset design, which establishes that low issuance can be implemented safely at the consensus layer, but that is a narrower claim than low issuance being economically survivable for solo operators.

The authors’ own bibliography also runs against them here. Eloranta & Helminen measure a 12% mean-return advantage for large pools today, widening to 13-15% under the reductions they model absent MEV burn. Arnold et al. conclude that a reduction in issuance is likely to crowd out solo stakers. Zhu, Korinek & Duckworth find solo stakers most vulnerable to issuance curve changes, while institutional and retail delegators are comparatively inelastic. Those are three cited studies pointing the same way, and the reply to them is that this proposal lands at a positive market yield rather than in the regime they model, which is an assertion about an unobservable supply curve rather than a rebuttal of the mechanism they identify.

So it is worth asking who is still staking at 0.7% net, or at 0.3%. It will not be the cohort that stakes for return. It will be the ETF issuer that needs a distribution yield on the same screen as a competing product, the corporate treasury booking reported income, the exchange running staking as a product line, and the operator with the best MEV capture, since MEV is untouched here. Every one of those is a KYC’d, jurisdiction-bound, coercible entity, which is precisely the profile this proposal was written to defend against.

2. The size-progressive claim doesn’t survive contact with how staking demand actually works.

The proposal argues that every operator eventually reaches a ratio where growth reduces its income, and that this arrives soonest for the largest. awma’s reply above is fatal to this and deserves more attention than it got. Large operators stake on behalf of depositors, so they do not set the stock of staked ETH; global demand for staked exposure does. No SSP will voluntarily cap its own size to stay further up the curve, because doing so leaks deposits to a competitor and it eats the yield compression anyway with less market share to show for it. The mechanism therefore has no lever on the entity it claims to constrain.

3. Raising MEV’s share of validator income is a centralizing act.

This follows from the above, and the authors concede the direction. Issuance is smooth and scale-neutral, while MEV is lumpy, rewards sophistication, and rewards variance-smoothing across a large validator set. Cutting the smooth, scale-neutral component while leaving the lumpy, scale-advantaged one intact makes the validator set more sensitive to operator sophistication rather than less. Pointing to MEV burn as a later step does not address an EIP that is being proposed now, since a sequencing plan does not function as a mitigation for the interim.

4. The transition mechanism creates tax exposure for exactly the cohort it claims to protect.

This is the part I find hardest to look past. The taper works by doubling BASE_REWARD_FACTOR to 128 and then decaying it, which doubles the gross credited reward while burning roughly half of it. Net yield is approximately unchanged, which is the stated intent, but taxable receipts double over the same period.

If a revenue service assesses income on the credit and treats the burn as a capital loss, deductible only against gains and capped annually in many jurisdictions, then a flawlessly performing home validator runs at a loss during the transition, at the exact moment the proposal maintains that nothing has happened to them. This arises because the reduction is implemented as a post-credit burn rather than as a smaller reward, and building the reduction into the reward curve would mean the question never comes up.

Nobody in this thread knows how tax authorities will treat this, and it cannot be settled by argument here. It needs written opinions. The proposal cites the nominal-yield tax asymmetry between solo stakers and shielded wrappers as one of its reasons to act, and then selects the one implementation that plausibly widens it.

On moneyness, I think this gets ETH’s competitive position backwards.

ETH’s case against BTC for an allocator was never that it was a better store of value; it was that ETH is a productive asset with a native cash flow that BTC structurally cannot offer. Strip the yield out and ETH ends up competing on BTC’s home ground, which is liquidity depth, ETF distribution, institutional acceptance and narrative simplicity, and it does not win on any of those. What it offers instead is higher volatility, more protocol risk and more governance risk, and the yield was the compensation for exactly those things. Remove the compensation and ETH gets squeezed from both sides at once, because anyone who wants crypto beta rotates to BTC and anyone who wants yield rotates to dollars onchain at 4-5%.

That is the point at which ETH becomes the thing people borrow rather than the thing people hold, and the dominant reason to borrow it becomes shorting it. The mechanism is not an FX trend; it is that we would have removed the only reason to carry the position through the volatility.

Staking yield is also the reference rate that everything ETH-denominated onchain is priced off, so cutting it to 0.86% at 48M staked leaves nothing you can price a lending curve, a fixed-yield market or a basis trade around. We would be handing the reference-rate role in Ethereum DeFi to Circle and Tether, inside our own ecosystem.

The size of the bet.

Reducing issuance does improve flows, and I don’t dispute that. But at today’s stake the burn destroys roughly 540,000 ETH a year, or about 0.44% of supply, and that is the whole of the measurable benefit. Against it we are wagering the demand channel that produced roughly $11.2bn of ETF inflows and a saturated entry queue, on the strength of an equilibrium nobody has measured, with no floor, no feedback control and no off-ramp short of another contentious hard fork negotiated in whatever conditions made reversal necessary.

The juice is not worth the squeeze. I would also note that the framing that “do nothing is not a neutral baseline” cuts in both directions, because this proposal is not a neutral baseline either. The consequences of the current curve are observable and we are living with them, whereas the consequences of this one depend, by the authors’ own account, on a supply curve nobody can observe.

What I’m asking for.

I understand why targeting mechanisms were rejected, since they hand stakers a cartelization lever and reward/penalty rebalancing opens discouragement attacks, and I have no interest in relitigating that.

What I want is narrower and I think feasible:

  1. A hard, non-zero floor on net yield. JulianT proposed roughly 1-1.5%, and EthWarrior named a floor as the change that would move him furthest. Most of the claimed benefit, which is removing the marginal incentive to grow the ratio indefinitely, survives a floor. What does not survive is a terminal value of zero, and a terminal value of zero is what breaks institutional pricing, the onchain reference rate and the composition of the validator set.

  2. A solo-staker impact assessment published by the authors, with after-tax and after-opex numbers, rather than one reconstructed by critics in a forum thread.

  3. Written tax opinions on the post-credit burn from at least the US, UK and Germany. If any material jurisdiction treats it as income on the gross credit, implement the reduction in the reward curve instead. This is not a matter of opinion and should not be resolved by debate here.

  4. More review time. The concern about the compressed review window ahead of the PFI deadline is legitimate and widely shared, and the response that PFI opens the floor rather than closing it does not fully answer it. A monetary policy change of this magnitude should not acquire scheduling momentum before the distributional analysis exists.

I’d also say plainly that if the conclusion is that Ethereum is currently overpaying for consensus security, and that some existing solo validators will consequently no longer find participation worthwhile, that may well be defensible on its own terms. But it is a materially different argument from the claim that this proposal protects solo staking, and the distinction should be made explicit, because at the moment the proposal is being sold on the second claim while the cited research supports only the first.

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I’ve been following this discussion and keep coming back to whether we’re using the right lever here.

I understand the concern behind 8363. If staking keeps growing and more of that ETH ends up concentrated through LSTs, custodians and large institutional operators, that creates a real problem.

What I’m less convinced of is that reducing the return on all staked ETH is the best way to address it. Total stake and stake composition are related, but they aren’t the same thing. Changing issuance acts directly on the first and only indirectly on the second.

If the concern is intermediation and where delegated consensus weight ends up, native delegation seems like a more direct place to intervene.

What if delegation itself became native to Ethereum?

An ETH holder could place ETH into a protocol-level delegation system without transferring control of that ETH to a staking operator. Existing providers could still offer LSTs, liquidity, insurance, interfaces, institutional products, custody, tax reporting and other services.

But I’ve changed my view on one important part of the design.

I no longer think the delegator, or the commercial provider they use, should necessarily choose the validator that receives the underlying native delegated consensus weight.

The structure I’m exploring now looks more like:

ETH holder -> native delegation pool -> protocol-routed validators

A user could still choose Lido, Coinbase, Chorus One, a wallet or another service at the application layer, but that commercial choice would not automatically route the native delegated stake back to that provider’s validators.

The reason for this change is the identity problem.

My earlier approach tried to make increasingly concentrated operators progressively more expensive. I explored declining reward curves, bond-backed capacity, operator families and concentration reserves.

I no longer think that is the cleanest direction.

Any nonlinear rule applied independently to pseudonymous validator identities risks becoming a game about how the same underlying actor partitions itself. Ethereum cannot reliably know that ten apparently independent validators or operators are actually controlled by one entity.

So instead of trying to identify concentrated hidden owners, the current construction tries to make identity splitting irrelevant to the allocation rule itself.

For validator i, let:

V_i = ordinary native effective balance

If the validator is NED-enabled:

B_i = V_i

otherwise:

B_i = 0

B_i is deliberately not “operator-owned stake.” Ethereum can observe validator credentials and effective balance, but it cannot reliably observe beneficial ownership.

Let:

D_i = protocol-assigned NED delegated principal

The balanced routing target is:

D_i = u * B_i

where u is a common delegation ratio.

The important part is that the allocation is linear.

If one hidden actor divides the same eligible base stake across any number of validator identities:

B_A = B_1 + B_2 + ... + B_n

then its total target delegation remains:

D_A = D_1 + D_2 + ... + D_n = u * B_A

Splitting into more identities creates no additional target allocation.

More generally, if an allocation rule g(B) is required to be exactly neutral to arbitrary splitting, it needs to satisfy:

g(B_1 + B_2) = g(B_1) + g(B_2)

Under ordinary continuity or monotonicity assumptions, that leads to a linear rule.

So rather than asking Ethereum to distinguish “real small operators” from fake ones, the protocol makes subdivision irrelevant to the routing rule.

There is still another problem though.

If only a concentrated subset of validators participates in NED, even proportional routing within that subset can increase its consensus share relative to validators outside it.

The current construction handles that with a full-network concentration bound.

Let:

S = total ordinary active base stake

E = total NED-eligible base stake

D = total assigned NED delegated principal

and:

e = E / S

d = D / S

Now normalize each NED validator:

b_i = B_i / S

y_i = D_i / S

For an eligible-base mass m, define a Delegation Concentration Envelope:

C(m) = maximum delegated principal that can fit inside any eligible-base slice of size m

Operationally, this is a fractional-knapsack bound: sort eligible validators by D_i / B_i, highest first, and ask how much delegated principal can actually be packed into m units of eligible base stake.

This replaces an earlier version that used only the single highest local leverage ratio. The DCE is tighter because a tiny high-leverage validator contributes only the delegated principal it can actually carry instead of its ratio being multiplied across unrelated stake.

Let κ < 1/3 represent the largest pre-NED base-stake coalition the mechanism is required to prevent from being pushed across one third solely because of NED amplification.

Define:

m = min(κ, e)

NED also has an exceptional global effective-weight multiplier γ, normally:

γ = 1

Effective delegated consensus weight is:

Q_i = γ * D_i

The full-network constraint is then:

κ + γ * C(m) <= (1/3) * (1 + γ * d)

The reasoning is fairly direct.

Any hidden coalition with ordinary base share at most κ can have at most m of its base stake inside the eligible set.

By construction of C(m), the delegated principal assigned to any such eligible slice cannot exceed C(m).

So its post-NED consensus share is bounded by:

q <= (κ + γ * C(m)) / (1 + γ * d)

and the constraint above guarantees:

q <= 1/3

without requiring Ethereum to know which validator identities belong to the same hidden owner.

That is the part of the idea I find most interesting now.

It turns the problem from:

How do we identify and punish a large hidden operator?

into:

How much delegated consensus weight can the protocol safely add while guaranteeing that delegation itself cannot push a protected sub-threshold hidden coalition across a critical consensus threshold?

The construction also gives an interesting scaling property.

In the balanced state:

D_i = u * B_i

so:

C(m) = u * m

and:

d = u * e

The amount of delegation NED can safely support therefore grows with eligible validator coverage.

For an illustrative protected threshold of κ = 32%, the concentration-only capacity is approximately:

NED-eligible coverage Maximum D / S from concentration
40% 2.86%
60% 6.67%
80% 20%
88.89% 50%
90% 60%
92% 92%

So if participation is narrow, NED is deliberately small.

If participation becomes broad, the protocol can safely support much more delegated capital.

At universal proportional participation, relative amplification tends to zero because the delegated allocation increasingly resembles the validator set itself.

The shorthand I’ve been using for this is:

Flanders earns scale by earning coverage.

I also no longer think concentration, local delegation leverage and total NED size should all be controlled by one parameter.

The current construction separates them.

The DCE constraint handles hidden-coalition concentration.

A separate local limit:

D_i <= ℓ * B_i

bounds the delegated principal attached to any one unit of eligible native stake.

And a global limit:

D / S <= Λ

can bound total NED exposure even when near-universal participation makes the concentration constraint very permissive.

The broader framing has changed as a result.

This is no longer really an attempt to force large staking businesses to decentralize themselves.

A provider could become commercially very large.

What it would not receive automatically is an equivalent share of native delegated consensus weight simply because a large number of users chose its product.

In other words:

commercial staking share != native delegated consensus allocation share

A provider that wants more NED allocation still needs more NED-eligible native base stake, and the resulting delegated distribution remains subject to the network-wide concentration envelope.

There are obviously substantial implementation questions.

NED would need separate accounting for ordinary effective balance and delegated principal, lifecycle rules for activation and retirement, a bounded-cost implementation of the DCE, rewards and penalties across the two capital sources, historical slashing exposure, pooled withdrawals, churn limits and exceptional safety handling.

The current design also uses a global effective-weight multiplier γ as a last-resort safety mechanism. If an involuntary state change makes the active NED distribution violate the concentration bound, γ can fall below 1 so that some assigned delegated principal temporarily stops contributing full consensus weight. Increasing γ again would be activation-like and should consume churn.

I have also moved away from the attestation-only version I briefly explored.

The current reference direction treats:

W_i = V_i + γ * D_i

as the validator’s NED-weighted consensus balance for the stake-weighted roles NED participates in, including FFG, LMD-GHOST and proposer sampling.

That avoids maintaining two fundamentally different stake distributions for finality and proposal probability, although it reintroduces the economic issue that execution-layer proposer revenue cannot all be forced back into the NED pool.

The current approach is to leave that execution-layer revenue with the operator as an explicit operator rent rather than pretending the protocol can reliably measure and redistribute all MEV.

That means NED yield may be lower than the full economic return of direct validation or some LSTs. I think that is an adoption question that needs to be modeled rather than hidden with a subsidy.

Slashing and withdrawal accounting are also more complicated than I originally appreciated.

Ethereum can receive valid slashing evidence well after the underlying message was signed, which means pooled delegation cannot simultaneously provide unbounded historical delegated liability, finite final withdrawals with no clawback, and exact assignment of every arbitrarily late loss to the users who were present at the time.

The current reference design therefore gives the delegated component a finite NED slashing claim window while leaving ordinary Ethereum validator slashing unchanged.

The initial reference window is:

W_NED = 8192 epochs

A timely NED slashing notice keeps the relevant pool liability open. A withdrawal cannot settle until its delegated exposure has retired, the NED claim window has passed, and timely pending notices have resolved.

Historical NED exposure can in principle be proven against historical BeaconState commitments rather than requiring a permanent dense delegator-to-validator graph.

There is still a lot of consensus-layer work before I would consider this EIP-ready.

In particular, the remaining blockers include parameter selection, Pyspec lifecycle/accounting, a full audit of consensus uses of effective balance, accountable-safety analysis for exceptional γ reduction, sync-committee semantics, delegated slashing penalties, historical proof cost, state-processing cost and adoption/issuance modeling.

I also don’t think this solves every form of staking concentration.

Ethereum still cannot determine the beneficial ownership of ordinary validator stake. A custodian can still stake customer ETH outside NED. LSTs and staking providers can remain commercially concentrated. And NED does not make the existing validator set more decentralized by itself.

The narrower claim is that native delegated capital does not have to make commercial delegation concentration automatically become additional consensus concentration.

I’ve substantially rewritten the separate NED thread around this construction:

[IDEA] Native Ethereum Delegation (NED) - Protocol-Routed Delegation With Split-Neutral Allocation and Coverage-Bounded Consensus Amplification

It is still an idea-stage mechanism rather than an EIP, and I’m especially interested in corrections where the economic model collides with consensus-layer realities I’m missing.

But I think the broader question remains:

If the concern is staking composition and intermediation, should we be looking harder at mechanisms that operate directly on delegated consensus weight before using aggregate staking yield as the primary lever?

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yes. the authors have been cagey about the exact problem they are trying to solve, treating ‘high stake’ as an intrinsic problem. but most supporters I’ve noticed think it’s somehow an anti-intermediation/staking composition proposal. It’s really not. ‘High amount of stake’ is at best a really really poor and questionable proxy for intermedation/stake composition. The issue with intermediation comes from devs’ original decision not to have native delegation / liquid staking in the Ethereum protocol, not from the issuance curve.

8 Likes

I think that’s basically the distinction I’m trying to get at. If the concern is intermediation and staking composition, total stake feels like a very indirect proxy for the actual problem.

Native delegation seems like a much more direct lever. I’m not necessarily convinced Ethereum needs native liquid staking too, but I do think the delegation primitive is worth reconsidering.

I opened a separate thread exploring that and whether native delegation could be structured so that commercial staking concentration does not automatically become additional consensus concentration:

[IDEA] Native Ethereum Delegation (NED) - Protocol-Routed Delegation With Split-Neutral Allocation and Coverage-Bounded Consensus Amplification

Update (Aug 14): The mechanism in that thread has changed substantially again.

The earlier concentration-sensitive reward model, bond-weighted growth version, operator-family construction, quadratic concentration reserve, runoff mechanism and fixed leverage-cap version have all been removed from the core design.

The main problem I kept running into was identity splitting. If a protocol gives smaller pseudonymous operators better economics through a nonlinear per-operator rule, a large hidden operator can generally reproduce those economics by dividing itself across more identities.

The current construction takes the opposite approach: instead of trying to identify or economically punish large hidden operators, make the allocation rule itself neutral to identity splitting.

Native delegated ETH would enter a protocol-level pool and be routed by the protocol rather than by the delegator’s choice of commercial staking provider.

For validator i:

V_i = ordinary native effective balance

If the validator is NED-enabled:

B_i = V_i

otherwise:

B_i = 0

B_i is deliberately not “operator-owned stake.” Ethereum can observe native effective balance, but it cannot reliably observe beneficial ownership.

Let:

D_i = protocol-assigned NED delegated principal

The balanced routing target is:

D_i = u * B_i

Because the allocation is linear, splitting the same eligible base stake across additional validator identities does not increase aggregate target allocation:

Σ_i D_i = u * Σ_i B_i

So Ethereum does not need to determine whether several apparently independent validators secretly share an owner in order to make the routing rule split-neutral.

There is a second problem though.

Even proportional allocation can amplify a concentrated subset of the validator set if only that subset participates.

The latest version handles that with a Delegation Concentration Envelope, or DCE.

Let:

S = total ordinary active base stake

E = total NED-eligible base stake

D = total assigned NED delegated principal

and:

e = E / S

d = D / S

Normalize each participating validator:

b_i = B_i / S

y_i = D_i / S

For an eligible-base mass m, define:

C(m) = maximum delegated principal that can fit inside any eligible-base slice of size m

Operationally, this is a fractional-knapsack bound. Validators are ordered by D_i / B_i, highest first, and the protocol asks how much delegated principal can actually be packed into a base-stake slice of size m.

This replaces an earlier version that used only the single highest local leverage ratio.

That earlier bound was safe but too sensitive to one outlier. The DCE is tighter because a tiny high-leverage validator contributes only the delegated principal it can actually carry instead of its ratio being multiplied across unrelated stake.

Let κ < 1/3 represent the largest pre-NED base-stake coalition NED is required to prevent from being pushed across one third solely through delegated-weight amplification.

Define:

m = min(κ, e)

The design also includes a global effective-weight multiplier γ, normally:

γ = 1

Effective delegated consensus weight is:

Q_i = γ * D_i

Then require:

κ + γ * C(m) <= (1/3) * (1 + γ * d)

For any hidden coalition starting with at most κ of ordinary base stake, its eligible base share can be no more than m.

By construction of the DCE, its delegated principal can therefore be no more than C(m).

So its resulting consensus share is bounded by:

q <= (κ + γ * C(m)) / (1 + γ * d) <= 1/3

The protocol does not need to know which validator identities belong to that coalition.

The interesting consequence is that safe NED capacity becomes dependent on how broadly the validator set participates.

In the balanced state:

D_i = u * B_i

so:

C(m) = u * m

and:

d = u * e

For an illustrative protected threshold of κ = 32%, the concentration-only capacity is approximately:

NED-eligible coverage Maximum D / S from concentration
40% 2.86%
60% 6.67%
80% 20%
88.89% 50%
90% 60%
92% 92%

So if only a narrow subset participates, NED is deliberately small.

As participation becomes broader, the amount of native delegation the mechanism can safely support increases.

At universal proportional participation, relative amplification tends to zero because the delegated distribution increasingly reproduces the validator set itself.

The shorthand I’ve been using for this is:

Flanders earns scale by earning coverage.

The proposal also now separates three different risks rather than trying to control all of them with one leverage parameter.

The DCE bound handles hidden-coalition concentration.

A separate local limit:

D_i <= ℓ * B_i

bounds delegated principal per unit of eligible native stake.

And a global limit:

D / S <= Λ

can bound total NED exposure even when near-universal participation makes the concentration constraint extremely permissive.

So the direction of the proposal has changed quite a bit.

It is no longer trying to make large staking providers progressively more expensive or force them to decentralize themselves.

A provider could remain commercially very large.

What its customer base would no longer provide automatically is an equivalent share of native delegated consensus weight.

In shorthand:

commercial staking share != native delegated consensus allocation share

A provider that wants more NED allocation still needs more NED-eligible native base stake, and the resulting distribution remains subject to the full-network concentration bound.

There are still substantial implementation questions.

The current reference direction treats:

W_i = V_i + γ * D_i

as the validator’s NED-weighted consensus balance for the stake-weighted roles NED participates in.

That avoids creating separate attestation and proposer stake distributions, but it means execution-layer proposer revenue cannot all be forced back into the NED pool. The current design leaves that execution-layer revenue with the operator as an explicit operator rent rather than pretending the protocol can reliably measure and redistribute all MEV.

NED yield may therefore be lower than the full economic return of direct validation or some LSTs. I think that is an adoption question that needs to be modeled rather than hidden with a subsidy.

Withdrawals and slashing also require a bounded-liability model.

Ordinary Ethereum slashing evidence can surface well after the underlying message was signed, so NED cannot simultaneously provide unbounded historical delegated liability, finite final withdrawals with no clawback and exact assignment of every arbitrarily late loss to the original pool participants.

The current reference design therefore gives the delegated component a finite NED slashing claim window:

W_NED = 8192 epochs

A timely NED slashing notice keeps the relevant pool liability open. A withdrawal cannot settle until its delegated exposure has retired, the claim window has passed and any timely pending notices have resolved.

There is still a lot of consensus-layer work before I would call this EIP-ready, including parameter selection, Pyspec lifecycle/accounting, effective-balance integration, accountable-safety analysis for exceptional γ reduction, sync-committee semantics, delegated slashing penalties, historical proof costs and adoption/issuance modeling.

It also does not solve hidden beneficial ownership of ordinary validator stake or stop custodians from staking customer ETH outside the mechanism.

But I think the narrower question is becoming clearer:

If the concern is staking composition and intermediation, should delegated consensus weight itself be the thing we design around before changing aggregate staking yield for everyone?

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Looking at the community pushback around EIP-8363, I don’t think that it is appropriate to PFI it as a non-headliner EIP for Hegotá.

This is a major monetary policy change with significant downstream effects on staking economics, solo validators, MEV, DeFi, and ETH’s broader monetary policy and SoV narrative. I think the most responsible path forward would be for the authors to take the community pushback seriously, refine the proposal, and bring issuance reform back as a future fork headliner eip, where a change of this significance can receive the dedicated debate and scrutiny it deserves.

I’m not ascribing any bad faith to the authors, but continuing to push for Hegotá inclusion through the non-headliner process is creating the perception that a very consequential change is being moved through a process that wasn’t designed for something of this magnitude. I also think it is extremely unlikely to make it through as a non-headliner and continuing to pursue is becoming an unnecessary distraction from the broader Hegotá EIP selection process.

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One thing everyone seems to agree on is that too high a percentage of stake is a bad thing. Another thing everyone seems to agree on is that it is desirable to promote solo stakers. Whether this proposal actually does promote solo stakers however seems to be the subject of endless debate and disagreement.

So shouldn’t this proposal be explicit about what it can and mainly wants to achieve: stronger incentives to reduce or bound the total stake. Leave the promotion of solo staking to other initiatives: correlation penalties, lowering the threshold for staking, etc.

This is the fundamental purpose of issuance, isn’t it? To secure the blockchain. If this is true, then why does Ethereum issuance not target a certain percentage of stake? This can be done by adapting issuance in function of the stake rate.

Let’s say that the target is 50%. In today’s situation, issuance would slowly increase until the stake target is reached (since no one seems in favour of increasing issuance, this could argue for targeting a stake close to today’s level). If at some point stake goes above 50%, issuance starts to decrease. Adaptive issuance has been implemented on the Tezos blockchain (I still can’t include links, but for implementation details you can Google this easily). Adaptive issuance could have an upper bound of issuance to protect against edge cases.

A possible advantage compared to this EIP is that it would appear unnecessary to implement complex further issuance changes. The target stake of 50% (say) could be adjusted based on experience, a technically trivial implementation. EIP 8363 is still vulnerable to other developments: if MEV burn is implemented, should we shift the curve upwards? If improvements in proving lower barriers to staking, do we shift it downwards? If a black swan staking event lowers the propensity to stake, do we accept that less than 10% (hypothetically) of ETH is securing the blockchain? Adaptive issuance suffers from none of these problems.

This is very controversial at a time when things are going ok. Do it later.

Hello @EthWarrior, and thank you for taking the time to write all of this. It is genuinely useful feedback, and apologies for the time it took to get back to you. I’ll focus on your first section (Zero-yield staking selects for institutional staking) and a bit of the fifth for now.

The proposal’s primary goal is to deter the deposit size from crossing the 50% mark. Several security considerations sit behind that objective; the most important one, for me, is keeping a large reserve of unstaked ETH as the last credible counterweight the social layer holds in defence of neutrality.

Under the current curve the dynamic snowballs the other way: the higher the ratio, the higher the dilution, and the higher the dilution, the stronger every holder’s incentive to stake merely to avoid it. It is fair to assume most of that snowballing stake accrues to large actors, because they are perceived as carrying the least operational and counterparty risk.

Agreed on who sits near the front of the exit queue: a 32-ETH home validator with a $500/yr bill (your own, rather fair, assumptions) needs 0.82% all-in before any risk premium, which the taper’s yield path crosses at roughly 48.5M staked. But fixed costs bind at the floor of the solo distribution, not across it: the same $500 is 0.82% of stake at 32 ETH, 0.21% at 128 ETH, and 0.013% at a consolidated 2,048-ETH validator.
Which is why the size distribution of solo-staked ETH is, to my knowledge, the single most decision-relevant number neither side of this thread has. I think EthStaker has made attempts in the past, but nothing conclusive came to my knowledge and I highly doubt we can ever get good estimation. If solo stake is concentrated at 32 ETH, your objection binds on the whole cohort; if it is consolidating post-Pectra, it binds only at its floor.

When you ask “who is still staking at 0.7%?” this assumes that 0.7% is where the market rests. It rests there only if 0.7% is the marginal staker’s premium, in which case the ratio has already stopped near 42% of supply, comfortably below saturation, and the zero-yield regime never arrives.

I want to take this head-on, because for me this is the strongest sentence in your post. I think it proves more than you intend. Cost-per-validator and MEV-capture advantages are relative: they favour the same operators at 3% yield as at 0.5%, under the current curve as under the tapered burn.

The revenue level neither creates nor removes them. So if cutting revenue cannot fix a composition problem, it follows equally that keeping revenue high is not protecting composition either. I half agree with you composition needs composition tools like MEV burn (which this proposal considers an important followup), correlated-failure penalties (maybe @OisinKyne?), inclusion lists, etc. under whichever curve. Then the issuance level should be set by the things the protocol does control: dilution, the existence of an equilibrium, and whether growth keeps paying.

For the sake of the argument, your points in the first section needs institutions to be yield-insensitive (“will stake at 0.13% if the alternative is 0.00%”; “stakes because it is a product line”) while section 5 needs the same institutions to be yield-sensitive (“that demand exists because ETH became the first major crypto asset with a regulated, distributable, forecastable yield”). If they stake regardless of yield, the ETF demand channel survives the tapered burn and so the demand-destructive case kinda falls. If instutions respond to yield, they exit long before saturation and are likely to seek better risk/reward options (including just holding or lending). Do you agree?

The survivors you refer to (“entities that stake for structural, regulatory, or product reasons, which describes exactly the KYC’d, jurisdiction-bound, coercible operators the proposal fears”) do also have exit points, because “structural, regulatory, or product reasons” all cash out as somebody’s economics eventually. For example, an exchange taking ~25% of rewards is running a product line on a quarter of approximately nothing. A treasury booking 0.13% gross against custody and audit costs is booking a loss. An ETF whose distribution yield nets to roughly zero is marketing a staking feature that no longer sells (on the same screen as the Solana product you cite, by the way there’s an ongoing issuance reduction vote in Solana land). I wouldn’t consider them less yield-elastic per se but still, sooner or later they exit too.

Now onto what you are asking for:

My short answers will be:

  1. Why not, we could do that and/or also try to rally a meaningful group of solo stakers endorsing this proposal.
  2. I feel that this is out of our scope and I’m not sure how tax opinions will be considered or challenged in this context. The burn is applied before the rewards ever reach the accessible balance of the user. The “mint less” approach creates difficulties on the microincentives beyond 50% but could nevertheless be an option.

3. 4. Why not. Do you or AAVE want to partner on this ? Based on recent discussions with Mike from ether.fi they may be willing to help too. I’m mixing 3 and 4 since hypothesis from 4 should be used in 3.

  1. This is good feedback and we can consider it in multiple ways. Do note that to our core objective is deter the deposit size from crossing the 50% mark so this non-zero floor has to be low enough or progressively tend towards zero over time (which can be done from a transistion period tweaking).
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How would this play out: “a large reserve of unstaked ETH as the last credible counterweight the social layer holds in defence of neutrality”. The vanilla ETH would have to vote with their feet in case of a large social slashing event? And we suppose that all stakers would be on one side, and all vanilla-ETH-holders on the other side of the argument? I am really trying to understand what scenario you are worried about.

Staked ETH isn’t a monolithic bloc either, but at least people who stake their ETH put their money behind a concrete entity, which they can pressure if they perceive it acting against their interests.

The same arguments of why proof of stake works in general should apply here as well - to control a meaningful proportion of the stake, a malicious actor would have to sink billions into acquiring and staking ETH (or convince others to give them their ETH). The last thing they’d want to do is to make all of that worthless.

Last time I posted on this forum was 2018, in the EIP-1234 thread, when Constantinople cut the block reward from 3 to 2. Eight years later, same debate, bigger numbers. Cards on the table since disclosure keeps coming up: I hold ETH, I don’t stake, less dilution benefits me directly. That’s my incentive, weigh what I say accordingly.

I want to point at something structural about this thread rather than relitigate the curve. There are 123 posts above this one. The voices are validators, staking providers, DeFi protocols, treasury companies, researchers. All legitimate. But run down the list and one group is missing: the majority of ETH that never stakes. That’s roughly two thirds of the supply. It pays for issuance through dilution, it has no fee revenue on the line and no poll that weighs it, and until this post, as far as I can tell, no voice in this thread.

That absence isn’t anyone’s fault. Unstaked holders are diffuse and don’t organize, which is precisely why the bill lands on them. But it should change how we read the room. When @greystroke says community pushback shows this doesn’t belong in Hegotá, the community being measured is the one that showed up, and the one that showed up is overwhelmingly the one being paid. A future headliner process has the same composition problem, it just has it later, with bigger incumbents.

Which is why the institution point Barnabé Monnot made on X yesterday, the issuance forum idea, matters more than any argument about the curve. It’s the right idea if and only if it solves the seat problem. Polls weigh stake, forums fill with operators. If the next venue is built the same way, it will produce the same answer, and calling that answer community consensus will keep being what it is now, a headcount of the paid side.

I don’t ask anyone here to agree with the EIP. I ask that whatever process kills or ships it can honestly claim the payers were in the room.

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